thanks for choosing god.




So, I was wandering the web looking for information on when satan was first invented, when I came across this site. It fascinated me. I mean, that someone could so obviously be hiding from the conflict between his bible and the real world around him. He actually has the attitude that some questions shouldn't be asked, and that kind of thing is such a mystery to me that I had to inquire. So I did.


From: Wildsong [wildsong@presidentbushviolently-happy.net]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:38 PM
To: LWBC@LWBC.co.uk
Subject: A question

I'm just wondering, on your page at http://www.lwbc.co.uk/origin_of_satan.htm
you say:

"... the inference is that God created Lucifer for the purpose of falling and causing the fall of man. This idea is dangerous and does not reveal God as a God of justice and love. It would mean that God planned for man to sin through Satan, and thus Himself would be the Author of sin. I believe that this issue should be left alone, for the simple reason that if God wanted us to know it would have been clearly revealed in the Bible. "

Your approach to facts that you don't like seems to be to bury your head in the sand. Doesn't it worry you that there are such clear contradictions in the book on which you have built your life? I'm not criticising or making fun of you here.. I'm trying to understand. You're going along in your story, building your worldview, and you come across something that doesn't fit no matter how you look at it. Doesn't that make you wonder? Don't you want to know why it doesn't fit? I mean, if everything in the bible is true, and the world is real, then everything in the bible must fit together perfectly, right? And fit together perfectly with the world, too, if both are real. Either that, or one of the two factors, the world or the bible, isn't what it seems. Do you genuinely not wonder about that, even though it affects your entire life?

If you do find the time to write back, I'd be genuinely interested in what you have to say.

regards,
-w
From: Gary Hall [gjhall@merseymail.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:39 AM
To: wildsong@presidentbushviolently-happy.net
Subject: Re: a question


In reference to http://www.lwbc.co.uk/origin_of_satan.htm
Hi,
Thank you very much for your email and taking the time to visit our website. It seems like you enjoyed your visit and found it very informative. It is always good to know that our visitors have thought through the details.
Please forgive me, but I did not fully understand your question regarding the comments about Satan. Nevertheless let me try to answer you.
Nobody has ever found contradictions in the Bible. All supposed contradictions are easily understood once a little Bible study is done. For example, some have questioned why we have four gospels that do not present exactly the same information. These people fail to see that four different persons were used by God to give four biographies that build into a whole. There is no man who could ever give offer us any information relating to the fall of Satan beyond that presented in Scripture. To delve into the subject, outside of Scriptural evidence, is to get into the regions of science fiction. True Biblical Christianity does not stand upon ifs, maybes, perhaps, or what ifs, being God's authorative word it puts forward a solid foundation that cannot be undermined. Far from 'burying our heads in the sand' Bible believers are content to rely upon God's wisdom and truth in matters of faith and practice. This does not of course forbid research.
'The real world'? I assume you think you know all there is to know about the real world, and that you presuppose that Christianity has no part to play in the real world. The Bible and the world are opposed to each other (as is revealed in the text). How can the Bible Truth and the world's principles and values perfectly fit together? Let me put it like this. Science is supposed to deal with the real world, but in countless ways it does not perfectly fit. Take for instance the evolutionary find of the century, Lucy. This was put forward as proof of our evolutionary past, but today Lucy has been discredited and is seen as simply an ape. Science (in all its faculties) is ever changing its views, theories and ideas. What was the real world yesterday is not so today. So tell me, what man alive knows what the real world is? To have a real world there must be a solid foundation, unchanging, exact, definite, and reliable. Nothing like this exists or has ever existed on earth. The Bible says that the world is the enemy of God and righteousness. Therefore there can be no unity between them. When you try to apply the so-called real world values to Scriptural Truth it is like trying to force the wrong piece into a jigsaw puzzle, or attempting to find the square root of 10 by using a history book. In fact, the 'real world' is governed by relativity (what a certain thinks or supposes, and it changes between people).

Regards.
Gary
From: Wildsong [wildsong@presidentbushviolently-happy.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 11:20 AM
To: Gary Hall
Subject: RE: a question

The tone of your response is awfully defensive, even in light of my statement that I was not criticising or making fun of your site. Nonetheless, I shall address each point in its turn.


:: Please forgive me, but I did not fully understand your question regarding
:: the comments about Satan.

My question was: if the bible is considered accurate, and the world as you know is real, which you can see because you exist within it, the two should mesh perfectly, and yet they don't. You mentioned science, and its ideas that are constantly changing. This is because scientific theory is composed of concepts, since we know that the world around us is real. If you look at the world as a constant, in that it exists no matter what you think of it, the ideas that you use to explain that constant must be flexible if they prove to be inconsistent with that constant. That is, if I believe tonight that on Sunday the sky will not turn blue, and on Sunday the sky does turn blue, my theory needs to be corrected in light of new evidence because it is obviously not accurate. This is the basis of the scientific method. The theory holds until it is in conflict with the facts, at which point it is altered to reflect those facts, since facts are irrefutable. So my question, then, was why when you come across an idea like the origin of satan, which is inconsistent with the bible and the world around you, do you shy away from the question rather than trying to answer it? The contradictions in the bible that you mention are: where does satan come from? You said: "There are those who try to get around the problem by suggesting that there was a pre-Adamic creation, and that Lucifer was the king over this world. Others believe that he was created along with everything else during the six days of creation."

So here are your two theories. You've got the world around you, which is filled with things that appear to be the work of satan, so you're convinced of the existence of satan.

"I dismiss entirely the first suggestion, as there are no Scriptural grounds to establish the theory. Promoters of this teaching do have proof texts, but really they are flimsy and can be interpreted another way. "

So you've discarded the first theory as inaccurate. It doesn't make sense according to your existing facts.

"As for the second suggestion. I find this unacceptable also, because the inference is that God created Lucifer for the purpose of falling and causing the fall of man. This idea is dangerous and does not reveal God as a God of justice and love. "

Now you've discarded the second theory because it calls into question what you believe about your god. The trouble is, by discarding both, you've established that, according to the bible, satan cannot exist. And yet looking around at the world, you can see evidence that he does. So doesn't that call into question your conclusions about the theories? Either the first or second is more accurate than you believe. If the second, your whole image of god must change to reflect the fact. However, rather than being concerned by this conflict, your response is "I believe that this issue should be left alone, for the simple reason that if God wanted us to know it would have been clearly revealed in the Bible. " or hiding your head in the sand. Doesn't it worry you that in order to validate your world view, you have to hide from any questions that might jeopardise it? How accurate can it actually be if it doesn't stand up to such simple questions?


:: Nobody has ever found contradictions in the Bible. All supposed
:: contradictions are easily understood once a little Bible study
:: is done.

Actually, a lot of contradictions have been found. One example:
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

there are many more at http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html, http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html, http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ which are just the first three that appeared in my search of the web. This brings us back to my original question.


:: 'The real world'? I assume you think you know all there is to know about
:: the real world, and that you presuppose that Christianity has no part to
:: play in the real world.

I think you'll find upon rereading my message that I made no reference to "the real world." Rather, I stipulated in my question that the bible was true and the world was real. You can't point to anything in the bible and say that it is real, because it is a story, historically accurate or not. You can't point to a mountain and say that it is true.. that makes no sense. A story can be true, and a mountain real. Therefore, if we suppose that both are factual, they must fit together perfectly. If all of the stories in the bible are true, and they point to interactions between the bible and the world, and the world is real, they must fit together perfectly. And yet there remain contradictions that call one into question. This means that one of them must be inaccurate. You can experience the world, though. I can hand you a stone that I've picked up from the ground, and you'll know it's real. I can talk to you, and you know I'm real. So there's no question that the world is real. So, if it is in conflict with the stories in the bible, which you can't see, or hear, or experience in any other way, doesn't that make you curious?

I don't know all there is to know. Even if I knew everything that had been discovered, every theory currently set forward, every tiny piece of knowledge that has been established, there's still a lot that no one yet knows. But if we don't ask questions, how can we learn?


:: The Bible says that the world is the
:: enemy of God and righteousness.

Yet this is the world created by god. This in itself is a contradiction. If the god figure is as all-powerful and all-knowing as the book decrees, surely he


:: Let me put it like this.
:: Science is supposed to deal with the real world, but in countless ways it
:: does not perfectly fit.

It is for this reason that the theories and concepts in science are constantly evolving. If your theory doesn't fit the facts, you don't try to deny the facts, you change the theory. Theories that do not fit the facts have no credibility, and serve no purpose at all.


:: Let me put it like this. :: Science is supposed to deal with the real world, but in countless ways it
:: does not perfectly fit. Take for instance the evolutionary find of the
:: century, Lucy. This was put forward as proof of our evolutionary
:: past, but
:: today Lucy has been discredited and is seen as simply an ape.

Actually, I'm not certain where you get this. Lucy is still recognised as one of the earliest ancestors of humanity, along with a number of other discoveries. The only people who call Lucy into question are the people whose religion she threatens. But that's ok. Blind faith is not what science is built upon, and a scientific theory must be able to withstand questions in order to be considered valid. No scientist would ever say that a question should not be asked.
http://www.africana.com/DailyArticles/index_20010411.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47640-2001Jul11?language=printer

If you watch these stories, you will see the theories changing to match the facts as more and more fossils are found.

:: When you try to apply the so-called real world values to Scriptural
:: Truth it is like trying to force the wrong piece into a jigsaw puzzle

Again, I think you'll find that I have not made mention of values. Rather, I'm dealing with facts, and values are not facts but concepts. It is the application of worldly values to the bible that makes you believe that there is a satan, since the values of the world are not those of the bible.

regards,
-w


He didn't write back. I'm in shock. You try to have a rational discussion in order to understand their point of view, and what happens?


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